Why is line up bloat a bad thing?

"Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis" (Dwhite95)
10/24/2013 at 13:41 • Filed to: None

But seriously, people are always talking it being a bad thing, especially with the Germans. But seriously, what wrong with it?

DISCUSSION (35)

For Sweden > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis
10/24/2013 at 13:44

People worry that the addition of non-traditional models will fundamentally change the corporate culture. This new corporate culture may make design and engineering compromises it wouldn't have before the new models.

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis
10/24/2013 at 13:46

IMO wagon versions of sedans models dont count, and neither do convertibles that come in hard top coupes if they maintain the same body line like the TT pictured. Figure a f150 comes in a variety of styles but its still an f150.

plus Audi isnt flooding the market like BMW is. I can get over the different models but the million trim levels is what kills me...I can own a top trim model 3 series and the neighbor can get the base model 3 series...and the wheels are the only obvious indicator that we arent on the same wave length

Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis > ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper
10/24/2013 at 13:49

I was just trying to find a picture with a lot of cars from the same manufacturer.

EL_ULY > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis
10/24/2013 at 13:52

Kinja'd!!!

C5 Allroad, the ONLY Audi I've truly yearned for ever. I would be the dummy to choose this over an R8.

BrtStlnd > ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper
10/24/2013 at 13:53

Audi isn't flooding the market like BMW? Ahem... what?

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis
10/24/2013 at 13:53

Ah, sorry...it struck a cord...a close buddy of mine is a diehard BMW fan boy we're always arguing about the silliness that has been coming from BMW as of lately. I just want them to go back to the golden years...bring back 2004! And keep it tidy.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis
10/24/2013 at 13:53

I kind of have to question to financial sensibility of it. Yes, you're generally starting with some other architecture that allows you to take advantage of economies of scale, but there are still significant engineering costs involved in creating a new model, even if it has amortized underpinnings. If the model works, then great, but a lot of the models that I see resulting from bloat are weird, nichey, fad-inspired models (I'm looking at you, BMW) that seem like very questionable decisions.

Obviously there are well-qualified people making these decisions and taking these kinds of thoughts into consideration, but I think we'll have to wait several years before we see how this rush to leverage architecture in 10 different ways pans out. BMW has already admitted defeat with some of their weirder models.

Stef Schrader > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis
10/24/2013 at 13:54

Profitability, to me at least. If a company makes cool stuff, I'd like them to stick around and continue making cool stuff. Making meh variations of meh stuff is just...meh. Lots of extra time and effort expended on making too many things that could have been concentrated on making a few very, very good.

Jagvar > EL_ULY
10/24/2013 at 13:54

Just watch out for that air suspension...

Victorious Secret > ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper
10/24/2013 at 13:54

Audi isn't flooding the market?

A1, A2, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, Q3, Q5, Q7, Allroad.

Do I need to keep going?

Victorious Secret > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis
10/24/2013 at 13:55

People who complain about model bloat worry that it will ruin the essence of the company without realizing that model bloat is what allows BMW to keep giving the M division money to play with to make their 'true' performance cars. Or whatever brand really.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper
10/24/2013 at 13:56

Audi is kind of the same way, unless you memorize their grille's and headlights.

And Audi has this giant list of vehicles (not that I think there are too many)

(Q6/Q8 coming soon I hear)

on top of that they have S and RS versions of a bunch but like you said we can count those as the same. Though, Audi's website does count them and they have 28 separate models listed.

Jagvar > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis
10/24/2013 at 13:57

Kinja'd!!!

Because when you start inventing new genres to expand your product line, what you create is invariably an abomination.

Decay buys too many beaters > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis
10/24/2013 at 13:59

I always though "model bloat" referred to how cars keep getting bigger and fatter.

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > BrtStlnd
10/24/2013 at 14:00

here we go....lol
I'm just going to give some examples: 5 series GT, 6 series grand coupe, the x1....plus the million trim levels they come in. Why? why? someone tell me...why? the 4 series was a predictable move so that isn't a strike against them, Audi did it with the A5.

pauljones > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis
10/24/2013 at 14:00

From a practical standpoint, it flirts with market over-saturation. At some point in time, when you get too many vehicles whose niches overlap too much, you're going to wind up with sales cannibalization. BMW, in particular, seems to be headed there; the overlap present with the 3-series touring, 3-series GT, X3, and X4 is borderline insane. the same goes for their larger 5-series-based counterparts. At what point in time do you get so many models marketed to such a similar (and finite) demographic that no one platform variation is capable of supporting itself in terms of cost to produce?

Granted, that limit doesn't seem to have been reached yet, but it always seems just around the corner.

BrtStlnd > ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper
10/24/2013 at 14:04

Audi A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, A8L, S4, S5, S6, S7, S8, RS4, RS5, RS6, RS7, Q5, QS5, Q7, Allroad, TT, TTRS, R8.

pauljones > BrtStlnd
10/24/2013 at 14:07

You forgot the A1.

EL_ULY > Jagvar
10/24/2013 at 14:08

your right sir, magic when functioning. I just did a whole control arm kit for my regular C5 avant quattro two nights ago. With my cheap Harbor Freight air compressor down, it made it "fun" busting ass til 3am lol :]

BrtStlnd > pauljones
10/24/2013 at 14:08

DAMMIT

... and if you want to get technical, all the cabriolets and the v10 R8.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis
10/24/2013 at 14:08

Base architectures are compromised to allow for more cars to be built on the same platform, but the more cars you can build with the same chassis (and engine, etc.) the better it is for business. What's best for a small, sporty coupe & sedan is not best for a luxury crossover people-mover, but they try to come up with one architecture that will fit both.

As an enthusiast, this means that the car I want is not as good as it could be because of other concerns in the model lineup.

The new WRX is actually breaking away from its Impreza roots, which should be a positive for the new car. The M3/4 may also not share the same chassis as the regular 3-series.

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > Victorious Secret
10/24/2013 at 14:09

but all those models are just that. plus the Avant variants. Not the same as having a GT and a touring, of a 3 series or a 5 series, plus the 6 Grande coupe..

pauljones > BrtStlnd
10/24/2013 at 14:10

Also, the Q3.

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > BrtStlnd
10/24/2013 at 14:14

trims..dont count, like a 3 series and a 3 series touring are counted as one. but a 3 gt is a completely different car that they decided belongs to the 3 series group cause of the front clip?? a 7 series and a 7 series L is counted as one not 2. Ms are performance versions on the regular models so they aren't bloat....com'on dont insult my intelligence BMW... and on this topic....how about that Mercedes Benz..

duurtlang > pauljones
10/24/2013 at 14:18

I think a manufacturer should and will look for the optimum. Offer too few options and you'll lose too many sales. Offer too many and the higher sales don't outweigh the higher investments.

In Europe, with its more divers lineups, you see that many non-European manufacturers struggle because they're unable the offer a car exactly like the individual costumer wants. Yet this exact car often is available at the competition. I don't think I need to explain the outcome.

BrtStlnd > ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper
10/24/2013 at 14:20

That's fine however you want to slice it up, but don't claim that only BMW is doing it when all three German lux makers are.

Victorious Secret > ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper
10/24/2013 at 14:21

The A7 is just a widened A6 with a different rear end. Its not a unique car. You criticize the 6 Gran Coupe, well you might as well give the A7 shit too.

The A5 Sport Back is also just a A4 with some reworked rear sheet metal. Go on, give Audi shit for that too.

duurtlang > Jagvar
10/24/2013 at 14:26

It's hit and miss. Assuming the mislabeled GT models don't sell well they'll be dropped without a replacement. Other inventions did work economically, like the sporty large SUV (X5) and the 2 door sedan version of a compact hatchback (mk1 1-series coupe). I'm not a fan of current BMWs, but I like that they have the guts to experiment somewhat. It's what I also like about a brand like Peugeot, with this radical new dash design with the dials above the very small wheel. I've driven one, and it's actually quite good.

Kinja'd!!!

pauljones > duurtlang
10/24/2013 at 14:26

Well, in your example of Europe, that's simply a matter of understanding the market and catering to it. That can be done with a few basic models, and does not require the level of niche diversification we're seeing today, particularly from the German brands.

As I pointed out, though, the question becomes this: At what point does that balance tip; at what point have you over-saturated the market and sabotaged yourself in the process?

I don't know the answer to that; I only know that that point does exist. We've seen it before.

duurtlang > pauljones
10/24/2013 at 14:37

You're absolutely right, I think we agree with each other.

About my example: I primarily meant offering multiple body types and lots of engines and trim lines per model . A mainstream manufacturer will offer 3-5 body styles and about 10 engines per bread and butter model (think: Golf, 3-series, Astra, Focus). As such they've diversified their market. Manufacturers that don't offer such a diverse lineup in Europe (like Toyota) lose sales because of it. I think this topic about BMW is somewhat analogue to this, or at the very least the BMW strategy seems analogue to this.

Wildstar > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis
10/24/2013 at 15:38

The money spent developing the bloat doesn't go to developing the core models. BMW has sold about 6 5GTs, yet they still make the hideous thing, and are coming out with an equally hideous 3GT. The car mags have not been kind to the new 3, driving dynamics have suffered. Is this because they spent the money on the GTs? Who knows, but if it is, shame on them.

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > Victorious Secret
10/24/2013 at 16:05

Yea, your right the A7 would be comparable to a 6 grand coupe, but there is no 2 door A7...

And the A5, really? BMW just....JUST... did the same thing...enter the 3 series coupe er....4 series*. If anything I'm just surprise they didn't do it sooner, I almost expected it since the E90, the difference in body between the coupe and sedan was so severe. In the E46 days the only difference between coupe and sedan were the extra doors 2 doors, the body was still the same glorious shape. (not knocking the e90s, If I was a Tycoon of some sort Id have all three: coupe, convertible, and sedan...all in M goodness naturally)

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > BrtStlnd
10/24/2013 at 16:21

You're right, but they're the number one offender with Mercedes coming in second, and Audi bringing up the rear. These are facts. And the unfortunate part is they beloved BMW is making atrocities in the process. Where as with the other 2 not so much, plus they sorta lost credibility with me when they started pumping fake engine noise into the cabin....big no no...especially when you were already a part of the big 3.

BrtStlnd > ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper
10/24/2013 at 16:23

Those are not facts. You could also just phrase your argument another way: "I love Audi and don't like BMW or Mercedes so I'll just make stuff up that fits that narrative."

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > BrtStlnd
10/24/2013 at 16:35

Lies, I love all cars with in reason (ZDX yuck, though anyone of us would agree), I'm not bias, I'm just critical of everyone lol. Or maybe I'm just mad they dont offer the the US all the RS models.

Just saw they're introducing an A3 sedan almost..ALMOST, makes everything I said moot, but it is better looking then the CLA, which is practically a CLS mini-me.

Ultimately when either Merc or Audi start pumping fake noise then they'll get shit for it too.